Enrollment leaders have choices and decisions to make that will impact not only their college or university, but also the future lives of students. Today, on the Enrollment Edge, I dig into the topic of financial aid and college access with Megan Hartless, Coordinator of Financial Aid and Scholarships at Blue Ridge Community College. Megan is a veteran of building unique and effective financial aid policies that target providing access to higher education. As the landscape of college enrollment changes in the coming years, it is estimated that access to financial resources for first generation and high-need students will increase. College financial aid and enrollment leaders will have to be intentional about providing the limited available financial resources if they hope to enroll and graduate those students. Bottom line? Many colleges will have to shift their aid model from providing what students want, to providing what they need.
[00:00:00] Jay Fedje: Welcome to the Enrollment Edge Podcast for college enrollment and marketing leaders. I'm your host Jay Fedje, Enrollment Edge is sponsored by enrollmentFUEL, a trusted full service student search and marketing partner to colleges and universities across the country. If you'd like to learn more about enrollment tool services, or you have questions about today's episode, we've included a link to our website in the show notes. You can also email us at firstname.lastname@example.org. We'd love to hear what you think. If you can, help us by subscribing to our podcast, sharing it with your friends and leaving a five-star review on Apple podcasts. Today on the Enrollment Edge, I dig into the topic of financial aid and college access in the first, of a two-part series with Megan Hartless Coordinator of Aid and Scholarships at Blue Ridge Community College. Megan is a veteran of building unique and effective financial aid policies that target providing access to higher education. As the landscape of college enrollment changes in the coming years, it's estimated the demand for financial resources for first generation and high needs students will increase dramatically. College Financial Aid and enrollment leaders will have to be intentional about providing limited financial resources. If their hope is to enroll and graduate those students. The bottom line, many colleges will have to shift their aid model from providing what students want to providing what they need. Thanks for coming today. Megan, we're just glad to have you on the Enrollment Edge and we're gonna be talking financial aid. So welcome to the EDGE today.
[00:01:32] Megan Hartless: Awesome, thanks for having me.
[00:01:35] Jay Fedje: Financial aid is kind of a love hate thing, isn't it? I mean, in your bio, a glutton for punishment was one of the phrases on there and I've worked with financial aid for years and obviously, you've worked in financial aid for years and it's a very positive thing when it works. It provides access, but it's a tough thing to adjust and allocate and in all of this, and we're gonna talk about a lot of that today. But one of the things that comes to mind, first of all, and I remember talking to financial aid folks that worked for me a number of years and I would say something along the lines of what keeps you up at night as a financial aid coordinator at a community college? What is it that keeps you up at night?
[00:02:24] Megan Hartless: There are two primary areas, I think that just give me enormous heartburn. One is the poverty that we see in our student population and the other is just this general looming scary idea of student debt. So poverty and debt, I'd say are the things that keep me up at night, more than anything else, and I think I have a lot of personal experience with student debt and what we see in our population of students in the Virginia community college system, obviously not every single student comes from a background of poverty, but we're in a pretty rural area and the level of rural poverty that we see coming through our doors is something that we have to throw a lot of focus at, its huge.
[00:03:20] Jay Fedje: Now that's not unique to a community college by any measure. Private colleges, big public four-year schools, also are tangling with the poverty measure and so it keeps you up at night. What are those things that you do? What measures do you take with your team to work with students that are coming from a high need situation?
[00:03:49] Megan Hartless: So we have to approach this from a number of different angles in the world of financial aid, of course, the access to assistance with completing the FAFSA, getting into the high schools and making sure that students are aware of the options before they get to the point where they are applying for colleges and trying to complete the FAFSA because there is money out there and then, unfortunately, a big part of it is encouraging early applications, which tends to leave some people in the dust but there's a lot of the funding that we get that we just don't get enough of that's sort of first come first serve and so those students who are getting their FAFSA's in in January, February, March are much more likely to get those limited state funds and those federal SEOG grants which are very small. So to apply early, but sort of outside the financial aid world, our campus takes a pretty comprehensive approach at addressing poverty, we have a wonderful campus organization called Beyond the Blue that is run by our head of our Human Services Department and she has interns that staff it, and they provide coordination with a lot of wraparound services. So they do a lot of intakes to help connect people with community resources that might be available to them and things like housing assistance and food assistance, we actually have a lunch to go program for students who can't afford to bring lunch on campus with them, and they get a voucher to use in our cafeteria, if they can show enough financial need, which I think is just wonderful. We connect them to our local food pantries and things like that for off campus food resources. We have a program, the whole Virginia community college system has contracted with a program called Single Stop and it's an electronic resource that helps students connect to and apply for various community benefits. Generally, your means tested benefits, like SNAP and WIC and things like that. So that's really become a more obvious need. So the VCCS recognized that they needed to kind of get people out and get them out into applying for these items.
[00:06:25] Jay Fedje: Is that is that a Virginia thing, Single Stop? I've not heard of that before.
[00:06:29] Megan Hartless: I have not worked with it personally. So I'm not 100% sure if it's a Virginia thing? But I do know, it's not local, because it is all of our state that is using it. So I don't know, it would be something that would be interesting to look into, it'd be nice to see if it was nationwide.
[00:06:48] Jay Fedje: Well, if it wasn't nationwide, it would be great for somebody that's listening to this to replicate it. You know, resource availability is a challenge for a lot of folks, but folks that are first generation or haven't navigated the college process before or have a high need, that resource availability is even more difficult to navigate.
[00:07:12] Megan Hartless: Definitely, yeah, and it's very daunting, there's a lot of stigma about applying for benefits, there are some people who they sort of take pride in not dipping into benefits, and oh, I don't want to apply for that, because that's not the kind of person that I am. So we really as much as we can try to destigmatize it and say, hey, this is a period of your life, where you are already by being in school, working to better yourself, let us boost you up and get you through, and then you go out and contribute to the next generation by working in the workforce and paying the taxes that subsidize these things. So there's a lot of resistance, I think some people, there are probably a lot of people who are eligible who are not applying. So we do try to make, we have a pretty broad awareness campaign to try to make people aware of these things. But then we still also get students who come in, and we'll mention it to them, and they'll say, oh, I never knew and well, there's a flyer every six feet on campus, and how do you get a student to read their email, but that's also just kind of part of working with college students that they kind of, they see in a little tunnel, and they don't necessarily stray from what they're looking for. So until they go looking for it, they may not necessarily become aware of it. One other thing I did want to mention that we do that I love is that we have something called BRCC Cares, which is a food bank, but for toiletries, because it's often very easy to find food assistance for some folks but finding things like shampoo and deodorant and sunscreen can be a lot more difficult. So we have little care packages that we give a student, I don't know what my dad always called it a dopp kit, which is like a little travel case that's full of toiletries and then when it's empty, they can come and bring it back and get it refilled. Which I think is super cool.
[00:09:24] Jay Fedje: You know as we talked about this the heading of this is financial aid, but it's really just access, its support resources, right and finances is one of them. But there's so much more. So just and I speak from, from knowledge of a lot of folks that are in financial aid enrollment management, that feel that we just throw money at people. If you just throw a bigger grant or a bigger scholarship, that's going to really take care of the problem and as you're talking about, it's not even close to filling that need gap, because need is not just money.
[00:10:04] Megan Hartless: Yeah, no kidding and I think, a big part of the problem, and one of the reasons that advocacy groups like NASFA and the state organizations are so important to the work that we do in financial aid, is that it's not just about getting money, it's about getting money to be used in the right way. We have had so many really well intentioned COVID related relief funds that have reached out over the last, you know, 19, 20 months, and it has been so frustrating for them to say here are several million dollars, but you can only spend it in this way and for us to be so limited on the ways that we can spend the money that we're given. So that's another huge part of access is at the school level, it's very, very important and I know, at Blue Ridge, we do a tremendous job of interdepartmental communication, and working as a cohesive team instead of sort of siloed departments like you hear about in some institutions, and I've worked in some institutions that were very siloed. But I think that beyond what's happening on campuses are advocacy groups that really get the ear of legislators a little better than individuals from college campuses, who can say, hey, great, thanks for giving us this money, this is what we need it for, can be really, really helpful as far as access.
[00:11:42] Jay Fedje: We're talking with Megan Hartless from Blue Ridge Community College, but so much of what you're talking about, I think there's some four-year schools that may have said, well, that's really not our clientele, that's not our demographic and the reality of the demographics is that they're shrinking, there's fewer students that are going to college, because 18 years ago, there were fewer students being born and so consequently, we've got a shrinking population of college bound, but the growing populations within that the mix of that, are communities that need academic mediation, that need financial mediation, that the number of first gen students that are going to college is growing and so this isn't something if a school isn't seeing it, now, it it's gonna be on their doorstep soon. So they really do have to begin, I think schools have to begin to plan and have to begin to understand the communities that will be wanting to come to their school, for education, and honestly, from a community college perspective, that's one thing, I think that four-year schools, we go well, I understand that, but you're sending transfers to them and those they're going to be, you know, they're going to need a four-year degree for their, you know, their career and as you send those transfers, their situation doesn't go away it comes with them and so for transfer, we've talked with a number of folks over the past year on this podcast about transfers, and that population needing resources and support, intentionality in order to get them through to graduation and you're right at the very threshold, you're at the front end of that process. What advice would you give as you are working with these two-year college students? What advice would you give your counterparts at the four-year school that are going to be receiving those transfers in the coming months and coming years?
[00:13:49] Megan Hartless: Oh, my gosh, I'm gonna tell you some amazing secrets that I know about community college students that four-year colleges don't seem to know and if they're listening to this podcast, this is going to help their enrollment. So I think that four-year colleges forget what a wise investment a community college student with an associate degree is. When I was in the four-year sector, and I've worked in four-year private and four-year public and it was really kind of the same. But particularly in the four-year, private sector, there's sort of this sense that there's less value in a transfer student because you only get them for two-years. You get two-years of revenue from them, you get two-years of instruction on them. So why waste your resources on someone that you're not going to get four-years of revenue from and from a 10,000 foot view, I can understand that train of thought. But I think it's very short sighted, I think there's this amazing secret. About two-year community college students that we have this tendency or four-year colleges that I've worked with have this tendency to devalue the two-year student that's coming in with an associate degree, because they look at them as less revenue, you only get two-years don't get four-years out of them. So you don't have that long term value. But I know some things about two-year students, that four-year colleges need to know, number one, they're already invested. They've gotten an associate's degree, if I was looking at revenue, and trying to decide if a better investment in my scholarship dollars was an 18 year old coming out of high school, maybe with a C average, that, you know, played some sports pretty well or was in some sort of arts organization and like legitimately pretty good, but sort of in that gray area where you're not necessarily gonna retain all four-years. Versus you take this, 26-, 27-year old single mom, who has worked her fingers to the bone to get that associate degree so she can come from a community college into a four-year college. That to me is the more wise investment, because you've got this person who has already shown they're capable of getting it done and that's not to say that 18 year old kid isn't going to, but if I'm trying to figure out where to invest, I don't want to lose out on that 2 very likely years, when we know the retention rate for freshmen students is not great. So I think I don't have numbers, I'd love to see numbers on how many students who come into a four-year with an associate make it to a bachelor's, I imagine it's probably pretty good.
[00:17:02] Jay Fedje: Its actually very high.
[00:17:03] Megan Hartless: I really think that's something that four-years need to take under advisement. I think one other thing that four-years really ought to look at is what bringing in students with less debt to start with does for their college as a whole. Community college students, by and large, borrow so much less than four-years students. At Blue Ridge, I am very proud to say that since I've been at Blue Ridge, and probably before, but I've only been monitoring it since I've been there only 12% of our population borrows, 12% percent and that's not pacifiers. That is the whole population. But we work very hard to keep our borrowing down, it comes back and bites us sometimes with the cohort default rate. Because when the denominator is small, it doesn't take much in the numerator, to get the default rate up. But knowing that I'm only sending, 3 or 400 kids a year out with a loan, you can't say that about most four-year privates and so when they have their statistics for average amount borrowed per student, your transfer students drive that down because they haven't borrowed as much. When you look at your cohort default rate, you've got people who are already coming in with a completed degree, and they're going to have a smaller repayment amount, and they're going to be it's going to be more manageable for them more likely for them to actually borrow. So community college students make your loan statistics look really good. So that's a really wise, I think, you know, we have articulation agreements with a lot of schools in the state, but that really only extends into admission, what that articulation agreement doesn't guarantee is affordability and I think until our four-years start really competing, for affordability for our transfer students with associate degrees, we're going to see more students get their associate's degree and stop and I think there's a pretty big trend of that already. We have a lot of people who are going you know what a four-year degree isn't really worth it. I can go out and get an associate and that's all my employer is asking for. They may make less money, but they may have more satisfaction, and they'll have less debt.
[00:19:38] Jay Fedje: You use the A word affordability and that is such a subjective term, it really has to do with the construct of previous wealth, and provision. So, if someone is coming in from a family, two parents both are professionals, they are working, there's an assumption of going to college and loans that dollar debt has a lighter weight to it than a single parent family coming in, and that person is coming from a high need community where that weight of that dollar is significantly more and so consequently, if they're coming in, just to reiterate your point, if they're coming in with, with little to no debt already, that weight is suddenly much lighter at that point, because they're not carrying, they're dragging a bag of debt with them into their four-year program and honestly, too, you know you still need a four-year degree to be a teacher and there's a lot of professional degrees that still need that four-year degree. So there's the dream of being the lawyer, the nurse, the doctor at certain levels, then yeah, four-year degrees are a part of that and lightening, the first two-years of that load, for transfers is absolutely one of those things that like you said, the four-year enrollment manager has to pay attention to, or to lighten that. Did you get all the secrets? Want to make sure you got the secrets? Because those are those are really important.
[00:21:18] Megan Hartless: I think that's all my secrets.
[00:21:22] Jay Fedje: Okay, they're good.
[00:21:22] Megan Hartless: If I think of any other ones. Oh, wait, you know, okay.
[00:21:22] Jay Fedje: Okay, if you come up with any during this time then make sure you jump in.
[00:21:32] Megan Hartless: I'll call out, secret.
[00:21:33] Jay Fedje: Sounds good, we'll do that. The other piece that you talked about, and this is a third rail issue for everyone and that’s student debt. Student debt is tied in my opinion to, it's need versus want, do you need the money? Do you want the money? Do you need financial aid, do you want the acclimation of the award, scholarship versus grant? And behind it is this debt and we talked a lot about that, I really want to dive in with more of this with you to gather your opinions, because, you know, as you know, within this administration, previous administrations and looking forward, the federal administration is looking at debt cancellation, they're looking at debt relief, they're looking at, you know, certain categories of public service and debt relief, you know, they're dancing with it. But they only dance with it, because it's a monster, if it wasn't a monster, we wouldn't be talking about this would be not a problem, but average debt load coming out of a four-year program. I love the fact that you said a two-year program, it's really, really low. But for a four-year program, the national numbers are staggering and that to anybody listening to this should be a major concern, simply because I think there is going to be a reversal. You know there's gonna be not only just pumping the brakes on this, but there's going to be a lot of students that will look at that and go, no, I'm not doing that. So talk about your experience, your sense, what's happening now, as you look into the tea leaves, what is coming?
[00:23:37] Megan Hartless: So okay, I want I want to frame this a little bit by who is borrowing in the community college system. It's really an interesting dichotomy. When you compare your dependent students to your independent students. I did a comprehensive study of our population three or four-years ago, to look at just a variety of different things just to get an aid profile of our students. What we found one of the most significant things that we found is when you look at dependent students, it's the affluent students who are borrowing. When you look at independent students, it's the impoverished students who are borrowing.
[00:24:23] Jay Fedje: I want you to say that one again because I want to get my head around that.
[00:24:26] Megan Hartless: Okay, so now think about it in terms of price, and it helps you understand, if you're looking at a community college student, so for an entire year at Blue Ridge for like 15 credits a semester for fall, and spring is going to be a little under $5,000. So it's not a lot, it doesn't cost a lot to begin with and there are affluent families who can pay $5,000, easily.
[00:24:56] Jay Fedje: They can write the check, right.
[00:24:57] Megan Hartless: They can write a check, but some of them are savvy, and they know if my son or daughter gets a student loan, and I pay it, then that establishes a credit history for them and when they're out of school, they have a credit score, that's a decent credit score, and I don't have to give them a credit card. So that's great. We also have a significant amount of people who live beyond their means and so they may, on paper look very much like they could afford $5000. You know, on paper, it may say they make $180,000 a year and a family, but they may also have a $3,000 a month mortgage and $5,000 and so it's easy for them to go, you know what I can afford to pay $300 a month on a Parent Plus Loan, or I can afford to, you know, to pay a Stafford Loan for my son or daughter. But I can't just dump it all right now at the beginning of the semester, and some people even our payment plan is a little bit, we only break it up into five installments for the semester. So its still fairly large chunks, particularly for a full time student, which 80% of our population is not full time coverage, so that we have a lot of part timers. Now, if you flip that, and look at our independent students, they are the students who need every resource they can get they come in, they fill out their FAFSA, they have a 0 EFC they get a full Pell, they get a state grant, they may get another federal grant, and then they go, it's not enough, I'm going to have to work 80 hours a week, if I just have this. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to borrow my max loans, so that I can reduce my workload and get through college faster, which is great when it works. But it doesn't always and you know that is a trap. I think a lot of students get into a lot of debt, and they don't complete and we know our non-traditional students are a little bit less likely to complete then our dependent undergrad students and so we see these people that are borrowing, you know, $10,000 a year and that's as much in the community college system, you can only be a sophomore. So they never have to I never go over that 10 5, but they you know, they're borrowing it, sometimes they'll go halftime for four-years borrow it each year, and they'll get out of an associate degree with $40,000 in debt and one thing that I've learned about the population of poverty that we work with is, and I don't say this to denigrate anyone at all this comes from studies and workshops that I've been to is that when you're living in poverty, you deal in the immediate, it's much harder to look at the long term consequences of borrowing, what you're doing is saying, this is what I need right now, I just have to get this get through this year, so that I can move forward and it's very hard to look at that eventual consequence. But what happens when I get to a four-year and I've borrowed everything I can borrow? Then it gets a little tricky.
[00:28:28] Jay Fedje: Are there indicators, you said when the system works, and it doesn't always work? That's a trigger for me. Because I always see systems that don't work more often than they work, or they don't work the way they were supposed to. So somebody's coming out of a four-year or a two-year degree, coming out with $40,000 is an example of a system that didn't work yet, because you shouldn't be twice, three, four times the cost of the education coming out in debt and granted, there are those individuals probably out there that would say, Well, that was the plan, you know, okay, well, we'll just do it and you know, we'll figure it out. But for others, that's the trap. They got into that in that helps them live, like you said, right now, because the tyranny of the urgent is far more important right now, then what's going to be coming three or four-years from now we'll figure that out when we get there, but what are the indicators, what are those key indicators that you look at and you say you're talking with a student in front of you, and you're going this is going to be more of a trap and this student is, oh, boy, we gotta be really careful. What are those indicators, when you say this is not going to work well?
[00:29:55] Megan Hartless: So first semester, grades, I think, are a big indicator and I feel like we do a tremendous job coaching our Satisfactory Academic Progress, or our SAP students at Blue Ridge and helping them get back on track. But you can dig yourself into a hole pretty quickly. You know, and it doesn't give me as much worry, when we're dealing with a student who's just getting Pell and who says, no way, I'm not taking loans, when it becomes a borrowing situation, it can get pretty hairy pretty quickly and so you know, you get into your first semester, you get, 2 D's and 2F's, right? So then you get on SAP warning, and you get a semester with financial aid to try to bring your grades back up, which is great. So let's say even if you come back up mathematically, it's not possible to get to the GPA you need. So you need to submit an appeal for your third semester. So now we are three semesters in probably haven't made a lot of progress and probably already, you know, 12, $13,000 in debt and we have a wonderful program, with our Student Success Advisors, where they have a workshop that students complete, called the achieving success in college workshop, where after they have not met SAP conditions for the first time, they complete this workshop, and they learn about study skills, and they learn about time management, and they learn about campus resources and it's wonderful and they sit down with a student success advisor and the advisor creates with them something called a personal learning contract where they say, okay, this is what went wrong, this is where I lost my way, these are the resources I'm now aware of, that I can tap into, this is at least one Blue Ridge person I can go to, if I feel like I need help, I'm drowning, and I don't know where to go and then here are people in my other life and then they create some goals for themselves and they commit to meet that student success advisor over the course of a semester and those students who go through that process do tend to come back and do better because they know how, but it's frustrating, because we're not psychic, we can't figure out ahead of time, who's going to get into this situation, so it's a very just in time intervention and by the time we get there, they are already in debt and that's where it starts. So even if from that first day after they've completed that workshop, they exceed, they've lost a whole year and it's not that it's a loss their life is going to be richer for having failed and learned from it. But it still can be financially pretty devastating to keep piling on that debt and there are some students who, frankly, just are not conscientious and in a community college system, there are students who are coming, who are just trying to get their refund money and get through, we do a lot of work to try to identify them identify any kind of fraud, but financial aid fraud is rampant in this country. We have identified a number of fraud cases over the years that you know, that you can't tell it's fraud until the fraud has happened, usually and so at that point, they've you know, they've borrowed and gotten funds and obviously, that's not the majority of people who are getting into debt. I would say it's the best marker for when it's going to probably go downhill is that first semester set of grades.
[00:33:53] Jay Fedje: Yeah and so the stopgap measures at that first semester, you intervene at that point, and there's a conversation that says, okay, next semester, this is the path that's going to help you that if you stay on the same path, if you just keep doing what you're doing, you didn't know it, but you're in a you're in a pot of boiling water, and now we're telling you, you're in trouble. So you need to shift and make some adjustments. I think those kind of measures, for many schools, you know, dashboard indicators that someone's in trouble, really early intervention. Because at the beginning, it feels like and particularly at a community college, there'll be a lot of students that were at the beginning, you'd say, Oh, this is this is might be a problem. We don't have a community of support behind the student, the student is coming, and they're a high risk, because of the debt. They have to succeed because if they don't succeed, they're going to have that debt load on them and not have anything to show for it and as you and I have talked about, in the past, we both believe higher education, a college degree two-year, four-year is a pathway is a golden ticket out of the cycle and if we're looking at that as being the goal to get them into out of that poverty cycle, that two-year degree, that four-year degree is imperative. So you got to do everything you can to help them.
[00:35:31] Megan Hartless: And one thing that's really difficult is that warning them that something is going to happen is nowhere near as effective as when the thing actually happens. So when you get a warning that says, hey, you've got one semester to get it together, or else you're going to lose your financial aid. Okay, we'll see. When we get to the end of that, and we say, Okay, well, you didn't get it together, we're taking your financial aid away, then they go, wait, but wait, I didn't know what I was doing and, of course, there are always students who lost a loved one, or they were sick, or they were taking care of someone who was sick and those are very different situations. But I find that the majority of our appeals were, I didn't know how to do college and that goes with poverty, they are hand in hand, college has a language, you have to be able to speak it to be able to be effective, not only in the classroom, but navigating just getting to the classroom. You know, we have people who they'll come in to us and just be baffled, because we've asked them for their W2 and they have no idea what that is, because taxes are a completely foreign thing to them and it could be you know, they're 17 or 18 and their parents don't speak English, and they can't really ask them. Or it could be that they're 27 and they're disabled, and they've never worked. We have an extremely diverse population, when it comes to their socio-economic background, and their family background and their language background and it's really unsurprising to me at this point, I used to be very surprise when people didn't know things, like what a W2 is. But the more I learn about our population, I realize how would they know if nobody taught them? I had a work study student ask me where on an envelope to put a stamp. If you know that. How would you know if no one ever taught you? It's very simple. But you know, so there's this language, and we talk about be careful of your interest rates and we talk about don't borrow more than you need and talk about refund checks and things and if nobody sits down and says, okay, your tuition costs $2,000, your Pell Grant is $3,000, you can go to the bookstore and charge books to the additional $1,000 and anything you don't come back comes back in a refund check to you then when we start saying refund, they'll say refund, I didn't pay anything and, you know, we have this language that we have to be very cautious with. Because we do them a disservice by explaining things from the second or third step in, we really have to go backwards a little bit, particularly with a community college population. We have a lot of first gen students and parents don't know these things or they don't speak English and we just have to work on that, It is like speaking a different language. There is a barrier that we have to break down.
[00:38:58] Jay Fedje: You've been listening to part one of our conversation with Megan Hartless Coordinator of Aid and Scholarships at Blue Ridge Community College. Please join me again for part two as we talk through college access, loan forgiveness, and the changing landscape of financial aid on the next Enrollment Edge. You've been listening to the Enrollment Edge Podcast, Enrollment Edge is sponsored by enrollmentFUEL, a full-service student search and marketing partner to colleges and universities. If you're listening on Apple podcast, please give us a five-star rating and review, your feedback will help us remain relevant and on the edge. The Enrollment Edge is produced by Alison Walls, I'm your host Jay Fedje. Thanks for listening.
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